***: You have joined the channel ***: js__ (n=js@modemcable242.39-81-70.mc.videotron.ca) has joined the channel js__: i'm there alej00: so, alej00: seems it will be a short one today js__: yeah js__: i'm reading your mail alej00: k js__: what's an icube exactly? alej00: did u visited the website? alej00: its a digitizer alej00: analog to digital (midi) js__: okay alej00: u can connect like 20 sensors to it alej00: and u have also like 7 actuators(?) js__: cool alej00: 25 inputs to 8 outputs alej00: we can build any sensor we need alej00: 5volts and thats all js__: so, like, you can plug it into a computer and the icube sends/receives all the data to actuators/from sensors in a formatted way (like, OSC or midi)? alej00: but the software to run it it based on max/msp alej00: yeap like that alej00: but midi alej00: then in max or pd we can play with the data as we want ***: zne3ol (n=zne3ol@84-73-228-242.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined the channel js__: hi lorenz zne3ol: hi zne3ol: are we waiting for the others= zne3ol: ? ***: alej00 has deopped alej00 alej00: no, i think we can begin zne3ol: 5mins zne3ol: getting some coffee alej00: we were talking about the icube alej00: go ahead ***: You are now known as alej00 alej00: so, js__ i think we are kindda in the middle between concepts and technical requirements.. alej00: how can we sontinue the thread alej00: from witch end shall we pull today js__: i think we should have an objective for today alej00: si alej00: im not to worry bout conceptual stuff since in that sense is better to meet and fortunately we will have the time in Bergen js__: im a little afraid about "time" js__: how much time will we have? alej00: uhmm we arrive the 12 zne3ol: Notice: back js__: we probably be there the 12 too js__: the festival starts on 16 alej00: yeap alej00: short time alej00: very short js__: but should the installation be ready at that time? alej00: uhmm no idea js__: that's why I think we should prepare some stuff before if possible alej00: sure js__: especially if we're gonna have to take some shots of Montreal for instance js__: we should also think about documenting our work when we'll be there alej00: sure alej00: we will surely had to do that alej00: have alej00: if thats the case, we shall define some shooting style so the images can be edited together with ease..i mean is clear we can apply effects but it will be postive to think in advance if we can use certain styles and techniques that phps will add to the work js__: we're not thinking about using funky effects js__: we like to have a "movie finish" js__: the effects will be for the transitions between scenes alej00: sure alej00: i mean, how you move the camera js__: yes, it's not clear exactly yet alej00: as what kinds of thing we are interested in shooting js__: let's address your question about the agent alej00: k js__: the agent won't be artificially created js__: we have two choices: alej00: is it a tourist agent? alej00: ) js__: yes, or, well after reading your mail i feel maybe this is something we should discuss js__: but it surely is some kind of "moving agent" js__: 1) 3rd person: we film one of us moving through the city js__: 2) 1st person: the agent holds the camera and shows us the places; maybe we see her/his hands sometimes (buying something, or eating) alej00: i was thinking it could be a set of behaviours...determined after observing the moving patterns of us, the tourists, the nomands and of locals alej00: so i see, i was somewhere else js__: it will be some kind of intelligent behavior js__: actually the agent would try to optimize it's consumption of Bergen's sightseeing areas js__: i like what you said in your mail about how a tourist acts in a very capitalistic way alej00: this part im not to sure i like, since for real, when i go to a new city i normally dont follow the paths to consume the sightseeing places...maybe its a way to follow a map but my question is why shall we follow the same? alej00: the tourist is the worse of the rampant kapitalist figures! alej00: :) js__: one of the reasons i dropped out of computer sciences wuz because everything we learned was about optimizing things, making things more efficient; in the end for the big industries to make more profits js__: but yeah i see what you mean js__: lately i met a girl who made a piece of work called "Nomadic walks" js__: she started travelling in her own city (Montreal) js__: discovering her own way alej00: ahh yes, i think you mentioned her js__: the final resutl was a set of "walks" or "tours" that whe put on video alej00: i think the conceptual approach to the piece will only take shape when we get to the streets of bergen, is good to continue a disccusion thread til we get there...so we have each others ideas more clear js__: btw is someone getting the transcripts? alej00: yeap js__: good js__: i like this idea of "finding your own way"; of course as you said we're different from tourists alej00: maybe even the same but the amount of gadgets...creates a gap alej00: are we worst than tourists?? alej00: did you had a chance to read Tapios text? alej00: http://cfront.org/cf00book/en/tapio-networkedmediatourist-en.html js__: question 1: yes we're worst, because we're poor (we'll cost them more than we'll profit them) js__: question 2: i started but didn't finished yet alej00: it nails on the head of all us travelling media artists alej00: "A big problem for networked media tourists is to distinguish themselves from the ordinary, classical tourists. Carrying a camera with you all hours of the day is not the solution, but a constant and self-consciously underlined usage of latest digital equipment is a good start. You should not photograph the local statues and your friends, but shoot trash, graffiti, shop windows and all kinds of objects that you can pinpoint as being out of place (sic!). To remind your surrounding of your educated AV nature, you should also record sounds, pick up some objects and do some shopping for educational purposes. Then off to the lab, produce a few web pages with your locally informed and content-rich art, or write a critical text on the rights and wrongs of e-commerce..." js__: in some paradoxal way, i feel like if we go to Bergen and start "finding our own ways", we're going to end up repeating what other "media tourists" would do ... js__: as "media tourists", i feel like taking the "ordinary tourist" path is -- quite oddly, i agree -- a much different path than what "ordinary media tourists" would take js__: plus, we can change the perspective by filming those places differently, from non-standard angles alej00: it might be the same exact path alej00: we have to define the range of those angles js__: yes js__: i think it just has to do with the meaning we want to give to our work alej00: it all comes down to that, exactly. alej00: til now we have some words, shall we list them? js__: if we take the ordinary tourist stance, we'll reveal it's mechanisms: tourist as an automata running through the city just to maximize the number of pictures taken, the number of souvenirs bought, the number of places seen js__: okay, let's list them alej00: "movie finish" alej00: "moving agent" alej00: "rampant kapitalist" alej00: "Nomadic walks" js__: "media tourist" alej00: "finding your own way" js__: "ordinary tourist" js__: "non-standard angles" alej00: "ordinary media tourists" alej00: "classical tourists" alej00: path js__: "tourist as an automata" alej00: (this reminds me a jean luc godard movie called "les carabiniers") js__: (i haven't seen it; i'll try to rent it) js__: ok i guess the list is complete alej00: In Godard's Les Carabiniers (1963), two sluggish lumpen-peasants are lured into joining the King's Army by the promise that they will be able to loot, rape, kill, or do whatever else they please to the enemy, and get rich. But the suitcase of booty that Michel-Ange and Ulysse triumphantly bring home, years later, to their wives turns out to contain only picture postcards, hundreds of them, of Monuments, Department Stores, Mammals, Wonders of Nature, Methods of Transport, Works of Art, and other classified treasures from around the globe. Godard's gag vividly parodies the equivocal magic of the photographic image., Photographs are perhaps the most mysterious of all the objects that make up, and thicken, the environment we recognize as modern. Photographs really are experience captured, and the camera is the ideal arm of consciousness in its acquisitive mood. alej00: To photograph is to appropriate the thing photographed. It means putting oneself into a certain relation to the world that feels like knowledge -- and, therefore, like power. alej00: taken from susan sontag alej00: (dont read that if you want to rent the movie... :) js__: too late ;) alej00: haha ) alej00: so, shall we talk a bit of the technicalities...before we end for today? alej00: as last week, ii think it will be good to let others space to jump in js__: sorry, i don't understand what you mean alej00: yeap alej00: i mean alej00: you mentioned few technical things on your post alej00: and, yes we are far from having clear the whole thing js__: definitely alej00: but maybe few steps into technical stuff js__: ok alej00: can also pave the way for the next, hopefully clarifying state of our chats js__: the technical components of the installation, as I see them, will be: js__: a 16x16 electronic grid floor js__: a projector + video screen (or maybe more than one) js__: a computer js__: that's it zne3ol: sound? alej00: do you think this icube box would be useful for that floor grid? js__: dunno alej00: or is that somehow solved? js__: i'm still worried about the feasability of the floor, but Sam our electronicist is confident wrt it js__: interfacing with the computer is not the issue js__: it's more about wether the physical interface will work alej00: tell sam about this icube, we will have to find the puredata object/patches to control it js__: ok alej00: i will like to have a map of bergen and the location of the gallery space js__: my plan is that we'll have a subteam in montreal (sam and julien cannot come during the whole residency) working on the electronic floor js__: alejo: yes, it's of prime importance alej00: to see if we can get realtime feeds via wireless devices alej00: apart of the "path" that an average "tourist" (read: person) will take to arrive to the installation alej00: i will email the piksel list about location js__: good alej00: i will also like to integrate the Access Points to the whole thing, and phps setting one in a plublic space in montreal with kismet that sends data to us in bergen alej00: as long as another one in colombia js__: good alej00: but for this we can make an open call on the IRC channels... to get realtime input from many places * alej00 thinking on those parallel events that you guys mentioned on the wiki page js__: you mean, "parallel events" = scenes from montreal and wireless data from bogota? alej00: yeap...though i dont understand well what is worth to be shown from those other places..be it montreal or luzern or medellin alej00: have u seen the A9 thing from amazon? js__: nope js__: wow, cool! alej00: its trully ridiculous! alej00: insane alej00: but neither montreal or medellin or bern is there.. alej00: yet alej00: hehe alej00: im here: alej00: http://maps.a9.com/?ypLoc=851%20SW%208th%20St%2C%20Miami%2C%20FL alej00: where are you? zne3ol: hu? js__: i'm not on the map :( js__: i'm here: http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=6510+de+Lanaudi%C3%A8re,+montr%C3%A9al,+qc&spn=0. 027927,0.060176&hl=en alej00: me and laura here: http://map.search.ch/emmenbrucke/ober-emmenweid-3 zne3ol: http://map.search.ch/?x=-56624&y=40798&z=1024 alej00: so, i will look in this mapping hacks book to see if theres some nice script to phps make use of any of this or other similar databases.. alej00: both for Bergen and elsewhere zne3ol: i've got it too! zne3ol: amazing book js__: it's strange because i feel like those mapping tools are telling just one part of the story js__: when you see this you go "hey, that's cool, now i can travel without moving from my chair" zne3ol: but you can not listen to the surroundings. the gurtenfestival: http://map.search.ch/bern?x=-610&y=3926&z=1024 zne3ol: :) js__: but at the same time those pictures and satellite images are just like the photos from Godard's movie alej00: war technologies also js__: sound doesn't change much js__: what is lacking is exchange with the other culture js__: with people js__: interactivity zne3ol: for shure js__: from my own (very short) experience with interactive media, the struggle seems to be always the same js__: the technical tools are multiple but in themselves they express nothing js__: for me the most important thing is: what story do i want to tell and how can i do it best with the available tools? alej00: if you dont use them with an artistic intention alej00: but this word art makes me sick sometimes alej00: i know very well what you mean js__: what i mean is that i would like us to be careful about the tools we're going to use alej00: or the tools will use us js__: wuz about to say just the same ;) alej00: but thats the struggle, always js__: i found out the best way to go is to iterate back and forth between the concept and the formal aspects js__: and setting constraints as i go js__: from my point of view the technical constraints i explained them earlier: floor, projector, screen, computer alej00: high concept / low tech alej00: (and today is 9/11) js__: (the day of the coup in Chile, isn't it? ;) ) alej00: ((maybe also, i dunno)) js__: i think the next objective should be to clarify the technical aspect from the point of view of wireless data and GPS js__: and to clarify a little about the sound js__: btw i think we could clearly use AI methods for generating sound live according to wireless data alej00: nice alej00: both of your questions we (soup) should address in the wiki js__: it could be use, for instance, to get this "movie finish" wrt sound js__: ok alej00: can u explain a bit js__: can (should) we meet next sunday again? js__: yes alej00: the movie finish wrt sound js__: i'm not sure exactly how yet, but, let's say we'd like to have a "movie finish" that "looks like" a commercial movie, we could have a sound generator that generates (live) audio that sounds like pop music for instance js__: we can also think about, i don't know, in some kinds of scenes, music is different than in others js__: global energy can influence the music: if there's lots of people on the floor, the agent becomes eclectic and the music could increase it's rythm, becoming more "energetic" js__: anyway, i dunno how far we can go into it in the timespan we have, but we sure can try something out zne3ol: i don't know if we really want make "music" in terms of real music js__: no actually it can be just sound alej00: (i have some crazy energetic muzik, ultra commercial in latin america that can create this "otherness" presence -interaction- your mentioned before) js__: what i mean is that if we generate live music with wireless data by just (for instance) plugin the raw data in the audio out, we'll end up with some kind of quite aggressive, unlistenable sound alej00: but yea, still it needs a place and a reason to be in the peaye alej00: piece js__: (yeah, this is great: the point would be to get to know of we could automatically generate audio that gives this feeling) js__: what should be our goal for next week? alej00: yeap alej00: why not reread and add comments to this chat? alej00: or not zne3ol: goal for me: working on soup not on synergy alej00: maybe that makes it to long alej00: uhmmm, what about, defining the "movie finish" so we get into the elements we want to talk with and about js__: actually i already defined it: i meant just no funky video effects alej00: images of what are u looking for? js__: so the whole thing has the look of a "standard" movie alej00: kino-eye js__: ??? alej00: vertov style.. i mean, the plan is to go out to the streets in montreal and look for alej00: something in particular alej00: that helps to bridge this "communication" with the "other" js__: yes, exactly alej00: what will you allow to be in the frame, what will be recorded?? and what will be left aside? js__: well, for this we have to agree on the stance we will take js__: what do we want to show to the public? js__: what do we want to talk about? js__: our proposal was to talk about tourism, both standard and non-standard alej00: yeap, a redefinition of the word tourism, phps in todays world we are all supposed to behave like tourists js__: maybe we should take footage from big sightseeing places in montreal vs small unknown streets in Bergen alej00: "tourist agents" js__: yes: maybe even in our own cities js__: i like that alej00: everywhere js__: actually sounds like a good name for an artwork ;) alej00: consuming with our digital technologies like japanese tourists alej00: si alej00: i agree alej00: sounds funny alej00: we have a code name at least alej00: (im hungry...hunger..hunger) js__: ok js__: i'm hungry too alej00: so, lets leave 2 tasks alej00: one for the definition of teh concept, guided by this "tourist" trend alej00: and one other technical alej00: so people can choose in witch one to add, and collaborate with js__: for the technical issue, i think we should focus on how sound could be generated out of wireless data zne3ol: actually i'm using pd for that zne3ol: i don't have a huge library of generators alej00: alej00: gisle, we have a Q. since we arrive the 12 of october abd the festival begins the 16..what day is the ("gallery") installation projects opening? alej00: gisle: hi, I'm back alej00: gisle: gallery opening at HKS is the 29th alej00: gisle: eh, 19th js__: (notice that actually, wireless data could also influence the image and the positions on the grid could influence sound, but let's stick to the following contraint for now: wireless data --> sound, floor --> video and agent) zne3ol: so i'll poke around with pd and try to get some more sophisticated patches js__: look at this: http://www.r4nd.org/rand_home.html js__: ok, cool js__: alejo: can you add the transcripts on a wiki page (call it "Chat2") alej00: si js__: ok js__: i'll send an email on the list mentioning the two tasks alej00: alej00: maybe withe the address looking at any of those online map services alej00: gisle: sure, should be possible alej00: gisle: have to check... alej00: gisle: adress is Klosteret 17 - http://www.kunstsenter.no alej00: gisle: north: 6701108 east: 296996 alej00: alej00: perfect merci alej00: alej00: ) alej00: cool, alej00: great js__ alej00: and thanks again alej00: ) alej00: so alej00: lets say next sunda alej00: y alej00: same time alej00: same place js__: okay! alej00: buena semana zne3ol: k ***: You are now known as _eating js__: si js__: byebye zne3ol: by ***: js__ has quit IRC () ***: zne3ol has left the channel ()
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